WARNING: Satire ahead. If you can't handle satirical humour, don't follow the link.<
><
>www.thehammer.ca/content/...a-us-nafta <i>There are many rules of<
>physics that govern our world.<
>There is only one exception.<
>His name is Nakor.</i><
><
>--Nakor, the Blue Rider<
><
><i></i>
In a way, this article really is true.
-
frog hopping kilik
Re: In a way, this article really is true.
So what exactly is the deal with this whole lumber tariff thing, anyway? I know you
ought this up like a year ago, and I still have no idea exactly what's going on. All I can gather is that supposedly, the US owes Canada a bunch of money in tariffs or something that for some odd reason, it hasn't paid off yet. Is that actually what's happened thus far? I'm sure there's more to it than just that, but I sure as hell dunno what it is. <
><
>"When someone beats you with a flashlight, you shine light in all directions."<
>Ph33r flashlights.<i></i>
ought this up like a year ago, and I still have no idea exactly what's going on. All I can gather is that supposedly, the US owes Canada a bunch of money in tariffs or something that for some odd reason, it hasn't paid off yet. Is that actually what's happened thus far? I'm sure there's more to it than just that, but I sure as hell dunno what it is. <
><
>"When someone beats you with a flashlight, you shine light in all directions."<
>Ph33r flashlights.<i></i>
-
Haryuu no hanekata
Re: In a way, this article really is true.
I guess as an American, even if I pay off my personal debts, I will never really be out of debt. The government phails at being a government. Revolution anyone? <b>The Ancient Forest ~ Neighborhood 99<
>The Gates of Horn and Ivory ~ The Blah Blah Roundtable<
></b><i></i>
>The Gates of Horn and Ivory ~ The Blah Blah Roundtable<
></b><i></i>
-
Nakor BlueRider
Re: In a way, this article really is true.
It's indeed kind of irksome. I fail to see why Canada is still honouring the free trade agreement while America refuses to. I bet if we started taxing all the crap they ship up here, they'd wake up a bit. And I can't think of any better way of dealing with it, since Bush refuses to pay any heed to NAFTA's councils.<
><
>I mean, we could cut off California's electricity pretty quickly, but that'd hit the citizens, not the government, which isn't really the goal. Equal and opposite taxation would hit the industries, who can handle it, and are sure to kick Bush in the balls if he doesn't fix the problem.<
><
>Softwood lumber is a pretty big part of BC's economy, and it rather sucks to be in that industry up here when the US taxes everything sent south, and Canada refuses to take effective countermeasures. I wish we had a prime minister with guts. <i>There are many rules of<
>physics that govern our world.<
>There is only one exception.<
>His name is Nakor.</i><
><
>--Nakor, the Blue Rider<
><
><i></i>
><
>I mean, we could cut off California's electricity pretty quickly, but that'd hit the citizens, not the government, which isn't really the goal. Equal and opposite taxation would hit the industries, who can handle it, and are sure to kick Bush in the balls if he doesn't fix the problem.<
><
>Softwood lumber is a pretty big part of BC's economy, and it rather sucks to be in that industry up here when the US taxes everything sent south, and Canada refuses to take effective countermeasures. I wish we had a prime minister with guts. <i>There are many rules of<
>physics that govern our world.<
>There is only one exception.<
>His name is Nakor.</i><
><
>--Nakor, the Blue Rider<
><
><i></i>
-
frog hopping kilik
Re: In a way, this article really is true.
Quote:"perfect capitalistic medical system's"<
><
>Did I ever say that? Nope. Did I ever say anything even vaguely resembling that? Nope. The medical technology level here may be advanced, but that says nothing for the way the health care system is set up. I don't think socialized health care would work in the US (it only works in countries with small populations), but giant, greedy HMOs aren't any better. The medical system should really be somewhere in between the two, not that I have any confidence it'll ever get to that point. Just figured I'd clear that little matter up first.<
><
>You know, you probably could have just stopped after your first post and that would have been enough. You'd already answered my question and all, and without any ranting that you'd already done before. <
><
>Anyway, I don't really see any simple way to straighten this problem out at the moment. Suppose the US were to pay back the money it owes Canada. Where's that money going to come from? Maybe if we didn't have a lot of it tied up in the military right now, it'd be easier to come by. Problem is, we can't really leave Iraq right now. Regardless of why we're there, leaving now would screw over the Iraqi people but good, and the last thing we want to do is let the place decay into civil war and turn into another terrorist state. We have to stay until the country can take care of itself. Until then, the only way to get the money to repay Canada would be to drain it from other things, like industry, and I can guarantee you the govt. isn't inclined to do that. Making a bunch of the American people suffer in return for having made a bunch of the Canadian people suffer may seem just to you, but no US govt. official in his or her right mind would consent to that.<
><
>In the meantime, yeah, we should do away with the stupid tariffs already, but that still won't make everything right. Chances are, if the debt is ever going to be paid back, it won't be any time soon. That sucks, sure, but even a total change of administration in the US govt. wouldn't likely lead to that much. Also, doing something radical and starting an all-out trade war isn't beneficial to anybody, so I highly doubt either our govt. or yours would do anything like place a total embargo on anything. Anything that happens is probably going to be slow and somewhat underwhelming, but that's about all anybody can hope for. This is too big of a mess to be fixed overnight.<
><
>Oh yeah, and who are these "they" people that you mentioned that keep wondering why Canadians are annoyed with the US right now? I don't know anyone like that. Anyone with half a
ain can see why you're annoyed, and if you were talking about the people with less than half a
ain, I hate them just as much as you do. I may be proud of some things about America, but the stupid members of this country aren't one of them. <
><
>"When someone beats you with a flashlight, you shine light in all directions."<
>Ph33r flashlights.<i></i>
><
>Did I ever say that? Nope. Did I ever say anything even vaguely resembling that? Nope. The medical technology level here may be advanced, but that says nothing for the way the health care system is set up. I don't think socialized health care would work in the US (it only works in countries with small populations), but giant, greedy HMOs aren't any better. The medical system should really be somewhere in between the two, not that I have any confidence it'll ever get to that point. Just figured I'd clear that little matter up first.<
><
>You know, you probably could have just stopped after your first post and that would have been enough. You'd already answered my question and all, and without any ranting that you'd already done before. <
><
>Anyway, I don't really see any simple way to straighten this problem out at the moment. Suppose the US were to pay back the money it owes Canada. Where's that money going to come from? Maybe if we didn't have a lot of it tied up in the military right now, it'd be easier to come by. Problem is, we can't really leave Iraq right now. Regardless of why we're there, leaving now would screw over the Iraqi people but good, and the last thing we want to do is let the place decay into civil war and turn into another terrorist state. We have to stay until the country can take care of itself. Until then, the only way to get the money to repay Canada would be to drain it from other things, like industry, and I can guarantee you the govt. isn't inclined to do that. Making a bunch of the American people suffer in return for having made a bunch of the Canadian people suffer may seem just to you, but no US govt. official in his or her right mind would consent to that.<
><
>In the meantime, yeah, we should do away with the stupid tariffs already, but that still won't make everything right. Chances are, if the debt is ever going to be paid back, it won't be any time soon. That sucks, sure, but even a total change of administration in the US govt. wouldn't likely lead to that much. Also, doing something radical and starting an all-out trade war isn't beneficial to anybody, so I highly doubt either our govt. or yours would do anything like place a total embargo on anything. Anything that happens is probably going to be slow and somewhat underwhelming, but that's about all anybody can hope for. This is too big of a mess to be fixed overnight.<
><
>Oh yeah, and who are these "they" people that you mentioned that keep wondering why Canadians are annoyed with the US right now? I don't know anyone like that. Anyone with half a
ain can see why you're annoyed, and if you were talking about the people with less than half a
ain, I hate them just as much as you do. I may be proud of some things about America, but the stupid members of this country aren't one of them. <
><
>"When someone beats you with a flashlight, you shine light in all directions."<
>Ph33r flashlights.<i></i>
-
Nakor BlueRider
Re: In a way, this article really is true.
I'd be happy if for now we could at least get the tariffs removed. That would give Canadian companies a chance to get back fully on their feet, and in time
ing back a lot of the lost jobs.<
><
>There needs to be some plan in place to restore the $5 billion (after all, that isn't owed to the Canadian government, it's owed to the people and companies that paid the tariffs) in a reasonable amount of time, but that can come later.<
><
>The larger mentioned figure is owed to the Canadian government, and it's less important for it to be paid back quickly, as those numbers are partially compensated for through currency exchange rates; it's a major part of the reason why the US dollar is dropping.<
><
>But there is absolutely no reason for the tariff not to be immediately removed. And yet, they won't remove it, because it's advantageous to them, and because Canada's being too damn nice to forcibly change their minds. That's why I said the articly really is true. We're working under a "Free Trade As Long As It Suits America Agreement." Bush won't listen to NAFTA, the UN, or pretty much any other world or international leader or agency, because nobody's forcing him to. <i>There are many rules of<
>physics that govern our world.<
>There is only one exception.<
>His name is Nakor.</i><
><
>--Nakor, the Blue Rider<
><
><i></i>
ing back a lot of the lost jobs.<
><
>There needs to be some plan in place to restore the $5 billion (after all, that isn't owed to the Canadian government, it's owed to the people and companies that paid the tariffs) in a reasonable amount of time, but that can come later.<
><
>The larger mentioned figure is owed to the Canadian government, and it's less important for it to be paid back quickly, as those numbers are partially compensated for through currency exchange rates; it's a major part of the reason why the US dollar is dropping.<
><
>But there is absolutely no reason for the tariff not to be immediately removed. And yet, they won't remove it, because it's advantageous to them, and because Canada's being too damn nice to forcibly change their minds. That's why I said the articly really is true. We're working under a "Free Trade As Long As It Suits America Agreement." Bush won't listen to NAFTA, the UN, or pretty much any other world or international leader or agency, because nobody's forcing him to. <i>There are many rules of<
>physics that govern our world.<
>There is only one exception.<
>His name is Nakor.</i><
><
>--Nakor, the Blue Rider<
><
><i></i>
-
Tanthalasis
Re: In a way, this article really is true.
I dunno. I kinda like the idea of making the entire American population suffer.<
><
>Maybe next election period, when they have no electricity to run anything, no natural gas to heat their homes, no softwood lumber to BUILD their home, no food in their fridges, and are unable to afford to put gas in their vehicles, they'll actually THINK about who they're voting for. <
><
><
><i></i>
><
>Maybe next election period, when they have no electricity to run anything, no natural gas to heat their homes, no softwood lumber to BUILD their home, no food in their fridges, and are unable to afford to put gas in their vehicles, they'll actually THINK about who they're voting for. <
><
><
><i></i>
-
Haryuu no hanekata
Re: In a way, this article really is true.
I did think about who I was voting for. Since I couldn't agree with either one, I didn't vote. <
><
>Oh sure...I gotta suffer for that one because Canada is so miserable. You guys up there vote for the people who are letting the US government get away with what they are doing so don't blame the whole thing on us. <b>The Ancient Forest ~ Neighborhood 99<
>The Gates of Horn and Ivory ~ The Blah Blah Roundtable<
></b><i></i>
><
>Oh sure...I gotta suffer for that one because Canada is so miserable. You guys up there vote for the people who are letting the US government get away with what they are doing so don't blame the whole thing on us. <b>The Ancient Forest ~ Neighborhood 99<
>The Gates of Horn and Ivory ~ The Blah Blah Roundtable<
></b><i></i>
-
Nakor BlueRider
Re: In a way, this article really is true.
The conservative party would turn us into America's little slave country if they were in. Who knows what the NDP would do, since they don't have much hope of getting in anyway. That leaves the liberals, who aren't a whole lot better. Mind you, it's not that they're doing nothing, the PM himself has gone down into America and basically ranted at Bush in several conferences and the like. He just won't do anything harsh like tax shipments going into Canada, like he should be.<
><
>At least we picked the lesser evil.<
><
>And again, while torturing the entire country would probably have the desired results, there are more effective and fair ways of going about it, such as doing to them what they're doing to us. Keep in mind that 49% of the US voted against Bush, and a fair chunk of those who did would probably disagree with this issue if they were even aware of it, which I doubt the majority of the US is. I would only cut off water/elec/gas/etc, if they were to try taxing its crossing of the border, since there's no way we should have to pay to send necessary resources to America. <i>There are many rules of<
>physics that govern our world.<
>There is only one exception.<
>His name is Nakor.</i><
><
>--Nakor, the Blue Rider<
><
><i></i>
><
>At least we picked the lesser evil.<
><
>And again, while torturing the entire country would probably have the desired results, there are more effective and fair ways of going about it, such as doing to them what they're doing to us. Keep in mind that 49% of the US voted against Bush, and a fair chunk of those who did would probably disagree with this issue if they were even aware of it, which I doubt the majority of the US is. I would only cut off water/elec/gas/etc, if they were to try taxing its crossing of the border, since there's no way we should have to pay to send necessary resources to America. <i>There are many rules of<
>physics that govern our world.<
>There is only one exception.<
>His name is Nakor.</i><
><
>--Nakor, the Blue Rider<
><
><i></i>
-
DEVILRAYS
Re: In a way, this article really is true.
Oh sure, make the liberals here pay for Bush's arrogance. I didn't vote for the bastard. I never supported him at all. I opposed the war in Iraq, and frankly, I like my softwood lumber and don't care one way or another if it comes at an extra price. I kind of think tariffs are overrated anyway and, though I have no power to enforce a tariff removal, would remove the tariff if I could. To make me suffer, along with all those who agree with me, is patently unfair and only works for people who would get their jollies from seeing America in total ruin. Probably from the same type of people who laughed at America on 9/11 while pretending to offer sympathy. <i></i>
-
CLOUDBOND007
Re: In a way, this article really is true.
Quote:Bam. All of a sudden, California, Florida, Montana, and most of NY State have no electricity. Ooops.<
><
>And then? No more fresh water to the US. Ack. All of a sudden, the US' water supply drops by 75%. That's not good.<
><
>What now? No more grains. Oh noes! That loaf of
ead that used to cost $.99 at the grocery store? Well, now it costs $10.99, because the maker of the
ead has to buy local grain at 1000 times the price. Eeeee....<
><
>And I'm sure this
illiant idea would not in any way affect the well being of families with innocent children and people here who agree with you. <
><
>CB007's Game Review Archive<
><
><
><b>Currently playing:</b>Wario Ware: Touched (DS) <b>Last game completed:</b> Darkwatch (Xbox)</b><i></i>
><
>And then? No more fresh water to the US. Ack. All of a sudden, the US' water supply drops by 75%. That's not good.<
><
>What now? No more grains. Oh noes! That loaf of
ead that used to cost $.99 at the grocery store? Well, now it costs $10.99, because the maker of the
ead has to buy local grain at 1000 times the price. Eeeee....<
><
>And I'm sure this
illiant idea would not in any way affect the well being of families with innocent children and people here who agree with you. <
><
>CB007's Game Review Archive<
><
><
><b>Currently playing:</b>Wario Ware: Touched (DS) <b>Last game completed:</b> Darkwatch (Xbox)</b><i></i>
-
Tanthalasis
Re: In a way, this article really is true.
Y'know what? All that all of you have said is true. Cutting the US off from everything would be blatantly unfair, and I admit it.<
><
>But then again. So is the $5 Billion in lost revenues, and thusly lost wages that Canadian families are suffering. So is the dozen or so TOWNS (in British Columbia alone) that have become deserted because the only major employer, sawmills, have had to shut down.<
><
>What about THOSE families, who had their father/mother/etc, go into work, only to be told that, sorry, because the US is being a bunch of asshats, that they no longer have a job, and now have to pack up and MOVE because there's no other work in the town?<
><
>Don't hear you crying for them.<
><
>Note that it isn't the goverment that that $5 Billion came from. If it was the government's money, I would likely care a whole lot less. It's because the money came from various companies, sawmills, lumber distributors, etc, that I get so pissed off about this whole thing. The government has money to burn. A $5 Billion problem would equal about... MAYBE a $0.01 difference between our two respective currancies. No, it's because it came from private companies, who then gave said money to private citizens and workers to buy food, pay bills, send kinds to college, etc, that it just makes me mad to no end. Taking money from the government is one thing. Taking it from someone who may very well be my father, or my friends' father, etc. That's something else. And that's NOT something I deal well with.<
><
>But completely
inging the US to ruin, as much as many Canadians would love to see, and laugh when it happened, isn't fair. But then again, neither is the way the US is royally screwing Canada right now either. Neither is the way the US is forcing sawmills to shut down, cattle companies to go bankrupt, and in general, taking average Joe Blows family and forcing them into the poor house.<
><
>Congratulations people, while you sit there and say how unfair it would be for Canada to cut the US off entirely, the US is already doing it to tens of thousands of Canadian families. So you can sit there and say it's unfair for us to do it to you, and it is, but while you say that, your government is already doing it to us.<
><
>And I've ALWAYS said that turnabout is fair play. <
><
><
><i>Edited by: Tanthalasis at: 8/31/05 10:12 pm<
></i>
><
>But then again. So is the $5 Billion in lost revenues, and thusly lost wages that Canadian families are suffering. So is the dozen or so TOWNS (in British Columbia alone) that have become deserted because the only major employer, sawmills, have had to shut down.<
><
>What about THOSE families, who had their father/mother/etc, go into work, only to be told that, sorry, because the US is being a bunch of asshats, that they no longer have a job, and now have to pack up and MOVE because there's no other work in the town?<
><
>Don't hear you crying for them.<
><
>Note that it isn't the goverment that that $5 Billion came from. If it was the government's money, I would likely care a whole lot less. It's because the money came from various companies, sawmills, lumber distributors, etc, that I get so pissed off about this whole thing. The government has money to burn. A $5 Billion problem would equal about... MAYBE a $0.01 difference between our two respective currancies. No, it's because it came from private companies, who then gave said money to private citizens and workers to buy food, pay bills, send kinds to college, etc, that it just makes me mad to no end. Taking money from the government is one thing. Taking it from someone who may very well be my father, or my friends' father, etc. That's something else. And that's NOT something I deal well with.<
><
>But completely
inging the US to ruin, as much as many Canadians would love to see, and laugh when it happened, isn't fair. But then again, neither is the way the US is royally screwing Canada right now either. Neither is the way the US is forcing sawmills to shut down, cattle companies to go bankrupt, and in general, taking average Joe Blows family and forcing them into the poor house.<
><
>Congratulations people, while you sit there and say how unfair it would be for Canada to cut the US off entirely, the US is already doing it to tens of thousands of Canadian families. So you can sit there and say it's unfair for us to do it to you, and it is, but while you say that, your government is already doing it to us.<
><
>And I've ALWAYS said that turnabout is fair play. <
><
><
><i>Edited by: Tanthalasis at: 8/31/05 10:12 pm<
></i>
-
frog hopping kilik
Re: In a way, this article really is true.
Trust me, that kind of one-upmanship wouldn't be beneficial for Canada in the end, even if it did succeed in screwing over the US. I'll explain why.<
><
>So suppose you overthrew the Canadian govt., took over all economic decisions, and cut off all Canadian exports to the US. That right there causes two things:<
><
>1) 78% of Canada's exports just stopped getting exported<
>2) The US will likely retaliate in a similar manner, meaning 61% of Canada's imports just got cut off<
><
>Both of those stats are from 2003, so they're essentially current. Stats site: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/canada.html<
>It won't be so easy to just find another buyer for all those exports, and it'll be even less easy to find another source for all those imports. Also, the US is by far the largest source of foreign direct investment in Canada, consisting largely of money put into machinery and industrial equipment (you know, the stuff you use in all those auto parts factories you have). That all gets yoinked as part of the aforementioned US retaliation.<
><
>End result:<
><
>US - The costs of wood, oil, natural gas, and beef in the US jump significantly as supplies drop sharply. People bitch about it, and then just shell out the extra money, anyway. Energy is extremely expensive in some parts of the country until a few nuclear power plants are eventually built over the next few decades, finally providing some relief. Existing US wood sources end up getting logged more heavily, causing some controversy over nature preservation. Wood and beef prices never go all the way back down to prior levels. Some machinery factories are converted to auto parts factories which had previously been in Canada, while others turn to industrializing Asian countries such as China and Malaysia as potential export targets. Most, however, are forced into massive layoffs. Activists begin railing even more heavily for prescription drug reform as drug prices rise. New regulations on HMOs have a minor impact on affordability, but the system remains largely the same.<
><
>Canada - Factories and mills nationwide lay off workers or are shut down as funding is pulled by multinational auto producers and wood, auto, mechanical, and telecommunications exports to the US are cut off. The auto parts factories end up being moved largely to Mexico, where the parts were already already being assembled, anyway. The primary target of oil and natural gas exports is changed to China, which proves a willing buyer. Electrical producers, however, are forced to cut back on production due to domestic consumption being markedly smaller than US consumption had been. Cattle ranchers struggle with a similar situation. Complaints about very long waits for major surgery in Canadian hospitals increase as US hospitals begin charging Canadian patients extra or denying them outright. Taxes are increased to help provide extra coverage, reducing the wait some, but not a lot.<
><
>This may all be speculation, but it's not at all infeasible. Needless to say, it wouldn't be beneficial to either country to set off an all-out trade war. Actually, now that I think about it, cutting off all trade to the US might even cost you your job, Tanis. Without such a convenient buyer for those bookcases or whatever that your factory assembles, who knows if they'd even be able to afford to pay your salary anymore? Would that be worth making a bunch of random Americans that you don't know suffer? You make the call. <
><
>"When someone beats you with a flashlight, you shine light in all directions."<
>Ph33r flashlights.<i></i>
><
>So suppose you overthrew the Canadian govt., took over all economic decisions, and cut off all Canadian exports to the US. That right there causes two things:<
><
>1) 78% of Canada's exports just stopped getting exported<
>2) The US will likely retaliate in a similar manner, meaning 61% of Canada's imports just got cut off<
><
>Both of those stats are from 2003, so they're essentially current. Stats site: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/canada.html<
>It won't be so easy to just find another buyer for all those exports, and it'll be even less easy to find another source for all those imports. Also, the US is by far the largest source of foreign direct investment in Canada, consisting largely of money put into machinery and industrial equipment (you know, the stuff you use in all those auto parts factories you have). That all gets yoinked as part of the aforementioned US retaliation.<
><
>End result:<
><
>US - The costs of wood, oil, natural gas, and beef in the US jump significantly as supplies drop sharply. People bitch about it, and then just shell out the extra money, anyway. Energy is extremely expensive in some parts of the country until a few nuclear power plants are eventually built over the next few decades, finally providing some relief. Existing US wood sources end up getting logged more heavily, causing some controversy over nature preservation. Wood and beef prices never go all the way back down to prior levels. Some machinery factories are converted to auto parts factories which had previously been in Canada, while others turn to industrializing Asian countries such as China and Malaysia as potential export targets. Most, however, are forced into massive layoffs. Activists begin railing even more heavily for prescription drug reform as drug prices rise. New regulations on HMOs have a minor impact on affordability, but the system remains largely the same.<
><
>Canada - Factories and mills nationwide lay off workers or are shut down as funding is pulled by multinational auto producers and wood, auto, mechanical, and telecommunications exports to the US are cut off. The auto parts factories end up being moved largely to Mexico, where the parts were already already being assembled, anyway. The primary target of oil and natural gas exports is changed to China, which proves a willing buyer. Electrical producers, however, are forced to cut back on production due to domestic consumption being markedly smaller than US consumption had been. Cattle ranchers struggle with a similar situation. Complaints about very long waits for major surgery in Canadian hospitals increase as US hospitals begin charging Canadian patients extra or denying them outright. Taxes are increased to help provide extra coverage, reducing the wait some, but not a lot.<
><
>This may all be speculation, but it's not at all infeasible. Needless to say, it wouldn't be beneficial to either country to set off an all-out trade war. Actually, now that I think about it, cutting off all trade to the US might even cost you your job, Tanis. Without such a convenient buyer for those bookcases or whatever that your factory assembles, who knows if they'd even be able to afford to pay your salary anymore? Would that be worth making a bunch of random Americans that you don't know suffer? You make the call. <
><
>"When someone beats you with a flashlight, you shine light in all directions."<
>Ph33r flashlights.<i></i>